INTERVIEW: Reciprocity is The Name of The Game, Says Tuggar on US Visa Restrictions

Global affairs have changed dramatically. With rising multipolar competition, prolonged wars, shifting alliances, and new pressure points in diplomacy, countries are now recalibrating how they engage with each other in the world and Nigeria is not left out of this restructuring.

Tuggar: Interference. It’s the biggest challenge. It’s a systemic problem we have in Nigeria, where the implementation of foreign policy is concerned. The lead for foreign policy implementation is the ministry of foreign affairs.

Over the years, and this is well before this administration came into office, there had been an encroachment on the functions of the ministry of foreign affairs. There had been securitisation of a lot of issues that could otherwise be resolved through diplomacy, through foreign policy implementation. In international relations, when we talk about securitisation, it is essentially turning minor challenges or routine issues into existential problems. And when an issue is considered to be existential, then it becomes a security issue — a national security issue — and then it takes on a short-termist approach, trying to resolve it as quickly as possible. It’s easier to throw money into something that is a security issue, that is an existential issue; but in the long run, that does not necessarily serve the best interest of the country, because then, you end up wasting a lot of money.

Here in Nigeria, we’ve had this tendency to securitise everything, so we find that certain roles are taken away from foreign affairs. I’ll give you an example. The ministry of foreign affairs is supposed to be part of the national security council, as stated in the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. Section 25 lists the members of the national security council. You never see a national security council meeting where the foreign minister is invited to participate. These are things that we’re getting a lot of support for from President Bola Ahmed Tinubu. We’re rolling back a lot of these anomalies, and that is why you see Nigeria’s foreign policy becoming more effective.

TheCable: Concerning the national security council, have you pushed for the involvement of your ministry since it is a constitutional matter?

Tuggar: Well, to begin with, the national security council has to even be convened on a regular basis for us to be invited. These are things, like I said, thankfully, the president is sympathetic to. He has a listening ear, and we’re getting the support.

When you are trying to bring about change, which is what this government is trying to do, you also have to pick your battles. Incrementalism sometimes is more effective than just insisting that everything has to be your way because there will be pushback.

TheCable: You spoke of relations with other nations earlier. We’ve seen Mali, Burkina Faso, and Niger pull out from the ECOWAS bloc, forming a new alliance, and imposing tariffs on ECOWAS nations, straining an existing fragile relationship. How is Nigeria able to balance relations with these countries while acting as a sovereign nation and as part of ECOWAS?

Tuggar: I would say principle and proximity. Principle, of course, we subscribe to certain values and ideals. We are a democratic nation. We have elections every four years. As a matter of fact, Nigeria is the only African country with five former heads of state living peacefully within its borders. Up until recently, it was six until the passing away of the late President Muhammadu Buhari. That speaks a lot.

In terms of proximity, we can never leave this neighbourhood. For as long as these countries exist, they are our neighbours and we share certain ties and affinities. In terms of the security of the region, we have to work with each other. So, when it comes to outbreaks of viruses, border issues, cross-border trade, when it comes to certain natural phenomena, it will impact us collectively. That is why even though these countries have left ECOWAS, we still continue to relate with them and collaborate with them on different platforms.

I’ll give you an example. There’s GIABBA. GIABBA is the ECOWAS agency that works with the Financial Action Task Force. Even though they’ve left ECOWAS, it is not in the interest of the AES countries to leave GIABBA. So, they are talking to ECOWAS, looking for a way for ECOWAS to accommodate them because the moment they leave, then there is every likelihood that they will be blacklisted. When you’re blacklisted by the Financial Action Task Force, you know what that means. That means it’s almost like a total shutdown in terms of financial activity.

For us, security, the multinational joint task force, Nigeria, Niger, Cameroon, Chad, are members, and the Republic of Benin. It is in our interest to continue to work with Niger. For instance, as a member of the multinational joint task force, it’s been proven historically time and again that the most effective way to tackle insecurity in that complex cross-border area around the Lake Chad is to establish the right of pursuit so that when you are in hot pursuit you can go into your neighbour’s territory and they will also give you support and vice versa. So, these things link us inextricably. We’ll continue to work with each other.

We also have certain organs like the Nigeria-Niger Joint Commission. It’s one of a kind. It’s the only one we have and it’s the only one they have. The way to address issues has always been micro-diplomacy, and it’s effective. It’s useful; they agree it’s useful; we agree it’s useful, and it continues to function.

TheCable: Have these countries demonstrated a positive attitude to continue relating with Nigeria and other ECOWAS member states?

Tuggar: It’s not even a matter of choice. Picture it. A thief breaks into your house, God forbid, and you chase him; is he not likely to jump over the fence? If he jumps over the fence, is he not likely to go into your neighbour’s house? Clearly, it’s not in your neighbour’s interest to allow the thief simply because he stole from your house. After all, he could equally steal from him as well. Or if a thief comes to a neighbourhood and he’s trying to make away with the transformer, it affects all the neighbours. These are the sort of things that, like I said, link us inextricably, whether we like it or not, and we continue to work on different fronts.

I was in Niger not long ago, and we continue to talk with the officials in Mali, Burkina Faso, and what is clear is that they have left ECOWAS. There’s no need to cry over spilt milk. We’re confident that, at some point, they will return. This is just a transient occurrence. You have to look at the longer-term existence of nations. Nations tend to exist for much, much longer periods of time. So, maybe the world we live in today, the need for immediate satiation when it comes to the speed of social media, we’ve forgotten that we’ve had coups and there have been regimes, and they come and go after some time. There’s a change in regime or there’s a return to civil rule. Even the military will tell you that they are not designed to deal with mundane issues of outbreaks, of sewage systems, complex conurbations and infrastructure. No, that’s not their training. So, it’s only a matter of time.

That’s why most military regimes will tell you that it’s a transition, and when they do, we’re confident that they will return. The way Africa itself is structured with the principles of complementarity and subsidiarity, with the African Union, and then the five regional economic communities and other regional mechanisms, even representation when it comes to elections, to global bodies, to continental bodies, it is the RECs — the ECOWAS, the ECCAS, SADC — that are recognised, and not other groups.

TheCable: On a multilateral level, there continues to be a push for more African representation in the discussions that matter. What is Nigeria’s strategy at the United Nations in pushing for these reforms, especially regarding security council representation?

Tuggar: We subscribe to the Ezulwini Consensus and the Sirte Declaration — two permanent seats for Africa and Nigeria would relish to be one of the countries to occupy one of those seats, and then additional seats also for non-permanent seats. As a matter of fact, it was owing to some of the exertions of Nigeria, of President Tinubu, of this ministry, that on the eve of the last United Nations General Assembly, if you notice, the United States actually announced that they are in support of Africa getting permanent representation in the UN Security Council. It’s just a matter of time to get the process going. The gauntlet has been thrown. It is now up to Africa to decide who they want to represent them. This is where we’re having some challenges because some of the smaller countries are saying that the seats should be rotational, but that’s neither here nor there because it comes back to what we have at the moment, where you have five permanent members, and then you have ten seats that rotate among other countries. Even now, Africa has rotational seats. So, what’s the point? Nigeria is not in support of that.

We’re saying this based on the fact that we represent the continent; we represent it well. We were strong advocates and worked diligently to free Africa from the yoke of racist regimes. If you talk about Mozambique, South Africa, Namibia, Angola, Guinea Bissau, we championed that. We made huge sacrifices to see that to fruition.

The fact is that we are also the largest country in Africa, the most populous. If truly the United Nations is representative of the people on the planet, how can you not have the third most populous country, and this is just in 25 years, represented? And even without being the third most populous, we are already the largest country (in Africa). We’ve always been. So, how does it make sense? And on top of that, we are the only country on the continent with a near-permanent status in the peace and security council of the African Union. So, it’s a national progression.

The reason why we keep returning to the peace and security council is that other African countries commend the good work that we’re doing in the council. They know and they formally believe and support the fact that our decisions, our positions, are based on moral precepts and ethical considerations.

TheCable: From cuts to foreign aid to tariff wars, there have been multiple policies that have altered the traditional world order in recent times. How is Nigeria adjusting to these current realities vis-à-vis Africa and the world?

Tuggar: There’s a change in the global distribution of power. What we have at the moment is a multi-polar system. That multipolarity requires that countries adjust accordingly, and thankfully, Nigeria has never been a country that has attached itself to other countries based on ideology, whether it is east or west or capitalist or communist. No, we’ve been pragmatic. What we have now, in the 21st century, under President Tinubu, is strategic autonomy. It is engagement based on Nigeria’s national interests, so that we can work with as many countries as possible. We have that leverage; we have that latitude.

Nigeria, again, thankfully has the size. It has the scale. It has the girth to be able to stand on its own and engage with others. It’s very important because that way, you are in a position to work with whoever you want. Some countries, unfortunately, cannot afford that because of their size. Maybe they’re small, maybe their geographical location — they are close to a certain hegemony within a particular pole, and they would have to maybe yield. But we don’t find ourselves in that position. So, we deal with all comers, and it’s working well.

TheCable: Part of these global changes have been visa policy shifts, some of which have been quite controversial, and some of which have also been concerning. How is Nigeria approaching these changes, particularly with the US?

Tuggar: Well, visa policy works on the principle of reciprocity. So, routinely, we evaluate our position and see whether the visa policy being directed towards us is one that is being reciprocated or not and then we make adjustments accordingly. We’re working, of course, on this with the ministry of interior in particular because visa issuance is under the purview of the Nigeria immigration Service, as you know. But, of course, it touches heavily on foreign policy implementation. So, it’s something that we’re evaluating; we’re looking at it, and we will act accordingly. The name of the game is reciprocity.

TheCable: There have been reports that Nigeria is planning to reciprocate the US visa restrictions, specifically the social media vetting policies and the entry limits. How true is this?

Tuggar: It is something that we’re looking at. This building is the custodian of so much in terms of history. It’s older than Nigeria itself. This is where foreign policy analysis takes place, and we have to evaluate and look at every situation before we come up with a position.

So, foreign policy analysis is going to play a very important role in terms of the decision we take and the decisions and we recommend for Mr. President to take.

TheCable: Nigeria’s foreign policy maintains that the country is non-aligned. Would it not be helpful to have clearly drawn out allies?

Tuggar: If you align yourself with a particular pole wholeheartedly, then it may not necessarily be in your national interest because you have to abide by their own needs. It may be in their own national interest, but it may be inimical to your own national interest. It doesn’t make sense for a country like Nigeria to align in that manner. It should be a partnership with a purpose, and it should be issue-based. We can engage with countries based on issues where we have a common interest, and there will be other countries also that share the same common interest that might not be on the same page as country A.

We feel that it is Nigeria’s right, it is in its best interest to be able to align with others. We cannot be constricted; we cannot be confined to just one country or two countries. No, it should be more, especially when you’re talking about 230 million people, because we are a reflection of the Nigerian citizenry. We have 230 million people where there is so much interest. Some people are traders in India; some are going to China; some are dealing with the US; some are dealing with Brazil; some are dealing with Europe. And then we say, ‘No, we’re not going to allow Nigerians that opportunity. We are just going to stick to one country’, simply because of what? What would be the reason? We have to avoid cumbersome entanglements that do not serve the interests of Nigeria and Nigerians.

TheCable: It’s been over two years since this administration was inaugurated, and Nigerians are asking questions. We’ve not been able to establish our diplomatic presence in foreign missions in terms of ambassadors. Are we going to see ambassadors appointed in the life of this administration?

Tuggar: We will. You see, each administration has to deal with the prevailing circumstances that it finds itself in. When President Tinubu was sworn in, if you remember, one of the first things he did was to remove subsidy because he wanted to focus on subsidising production instead of subsidising consumption, and he embarked on macroeconomic reforms, narrowed down the foreign exchange windows to one, and ensured that there was no external borrowing and all of that. So, it’s something that has been taking time to implement.

We here also have been carrying out quite a number of reforms. We’re looking at the missions and how to provide adequate funding — we have 109 missions. So, it’s a lot of work, and some of them have not, over the years, been in a pristine condition in terms of the assets themselves. We are willing to improve on that, and also, somehow, the debts that have to be settled. But it doesn’t mean that those missions are not functioning because there are no accredited ambassadors, no. There are very senior diplomats, and many of them have the experience to continue the work. Yes, we would love to have accredited ambassadors, but it is something that will be done at the right time when it is the best juncture. I’m confident that Mr President will do that.

TheCable: Does the constant blame on a lack of funding suggest that this is not a priority that should be attended to quickly?

Tuggar: It is, but we had limited funds. Now, there’s been a huge improvement based on the reforms of Mr. President. But at the same time, there’s also a lot to prioritise. So, this is something that, as I said, will come based on the programmatic timetable of the administration and what Mr. President has planned and designed.

TheCable: We see some countries using very sophisticated disinformation campaigns to disarm their rivals and gain sympathy for themselves in conflicts, and other matters of geopolitical interests. What is the ministry doing to ensure that Nigeria isn’t caught up in this web of disinformation campaigns?

Tuggar: Only last week, we set up an AI unit within the ministry because we’re looking at the future. This aspect that you spoke about has to do with deepfakes, but it goes beyond that. It’s AI as a whole. It’s a whole new field that requires more of Nigeria’s attention vis-à-vis diplomacy and international engagement and so forth.

We’ve seen the adverse effects of misinformation, disinformation, fake news, deepfakes, and all of that, and how in this day and age, it can become a threat to a nation.

The challenge here is Nigeria is a democratic nation, and democracy operates on the premise that there is an aggregation of what we agree to be true. So, this whole idea of a post truth era where truth itself is blurred and anything can be passed off as true is actually dangerous to democracy. It’s something that nations need to take very seriously.

We also saw what happened with the Binance fiasco, how cryptocurrency can also easily undermine the economy of a nation, where proceeds from criminal activity, ill-gotten funds can be channeled out of the country, taken out of an economy using crypto. These are things that really we have to be very mindful of, and we are being very mindful of.

We’re working with quite a number of countries on this. Even here within the ministry, we actually created a unit, even before the AI unit, that was countering false narratives and that was also fact-checking on a regular basis because we saw the usefulness in doing that. We’ll continue to do that.